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	<title>Comments on: More on Smoking Bans</title>
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	<link>http://brownandlittlelaw.com/blog1/2009/11/18/more-on-smoking-bans/</link>
	<description>An Arizona Criminal Defense Blog</description>
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		<title>By: mahtso</title>
		<link>http://brownandlittlelaw.com/blog1/2009/11/18/more-on-smoking-bans/comment-page-1/#comment-6666</link>
		<dc:creator>mahtso</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Nov 2009 04:56:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brownandlittlelaw.com/blog1/?p=296#comment-6666</guid>
		<description>To me, a lot of the smoking regulations are natural outgrowths of other regulations (i.e., we have been on a slippery slope). Restaurants and bars are workplaces, and the government has regulated worker-safety for years. So prohibiting smoking around the employees of these establishments is not a stretch. Of course, one could argue that people can choose not to work in places that allow smoking, but the same could be said about (virtually) all OSHA regulations (e.g., don’t work in a factory that has removed the safety equipment from its machines if you don’t like it). 

(The health department also regulates restaurants. One could argue that this regulation is not necessary and if I don’t want to eat in a dirty, roach infested place, then I should stay out of such places.) 

You are also not free to do what ever you want at your home or in your yard: loud music and parties have long been subject to regulation. Similarly, although I can use Round-up or other poisons in my yard, I am subject to penalties if I allow these to go into my neighbor’s yard.

I believe people should be able to smoke where ever they would like, but that does not mean that they should be allowed to subject others to the second hand smoke (regardless of whether it is dangerous or not). It is when the smoke fumes reach other people that the problem occurs. I think that most people would agree that I should not be allowed to sniff glue (a legal product) on a bus or at a bus stop, because the fumes will affect others. The same is true of smoking (in my opinion).

My gripe with smokers is not just the litter, but the lit cigarettes that I see thrown out of cars almost every day. (But I do see irony in the lengths that smokers will go to, to keep the smoke out of their own cars, while subjecting the rest of the world to it.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To me, a lot of the smoking regulations are natural outgrowths of other regulations (i.e., we have been on a slippery slope). Restaurants and bars are workplaces, and the government has regulated worker-safety for years. So prohibiting smoking around the employees of these establishments is not a stretch. Of course, one could argue that people can choose not to work in places that allow smoking, but the same could be said about (virtually) all OSHA regulations (e.g., don’t work in a factory that has removed the safety equipment from its machines if you don’t like it). </p>
<p>(The health department also regulates restaurants. One could argue that this regulation is not necessary and if I don’t want to eat in a dirty, roach infested place, then I should stay out of such places.) </p>
<p>You are also not free to do what ever you want at your home or in your yard: loud music and parties have long been subject to regulation. Similarly, although I can use Round-up or other poisons in my yard, I am subject to penalties if I allow these to go into my neighbor’s yard.</p>
<p>I believe people should be able to smoke where ever they would like, but that does not mean that they should be allowed to subject others to the second hand smoke (regardless of whether it is dangerous or not). It is when the smoke fumes reach other people that the problem occurs. I think that most people would agree that I should not be allowed to sniff glue (a legal product) on a bus or at a bus stop, because the fumes will affect others. The same is true of smoking (in my opinion).</p>
<p>My gripe with smokers is not just the litter, but the lit cigarettes that I see thrown out of cars almost every day. (But I do see irony in the lengths that smokers will go to, to keep the smoke out of their own cars, while subjecting the rest of the world to it.)</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://brownandlittlelaw.com/blog1/2009/11/18/more-on-smoking-bans/comment-page-1/#comment-6525</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 19:36:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brownandlittlelaw.com/blog1/?p=296#comment-6525</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re welcome. To be fair, I&#039;m with you on the whole litter thing, regardless of what it is. It&#039;s filthy, inconsiderate, and uncivilized. I live in London (the UK one), and litter is pervasive, not to mention dog fouling (these people who don&#039;t pick up their dog&#039;s shit ought to be drawn and quartered, but that&#039;s just my opinion). Worse, some of London&#039;s councils have simultaneously (and surreptitiously) removed trash bins and upped the fines for littering, clearly as a means for increasing revenue while also laying off a number of street cleaners to reduce overhead. It is asinine. It is depressing.

Although I don&#039;t chew gum, I couldn&#039;t abide a public ban on gum any more than a ban on tobacco or alcohol or civil liberties. This neo-puritanical era has gone too far and I hope the pendulum swings the other way sometime soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re welcome. To be fair, I&#8217;m with you on the whole litter thing, regardless of what it is. It&#8217;s filthy, inconsiderate, and uncivilized. I live in London (the UK one), and litter is pervasive, not to mention dog fouling (these people who don&#8217;t pick up their dog&#8217;s shit ought to be drawn and quartered, but that&#8217;s just my opinion). Worse, some of London&#8217;s councils have simultaneously (and surreptitiously) removed trash bins and upped the fines for littering, clearly as a means for increasing revenue while also laying off a number of street cleaners to reduce overhead. It is asinine. It is depressing.</p>
<p>Although I don&#8217;t chew gum, I couldn&#8217;t abide a public ban on gum any more than a ban on tobacco or alcohol or civil liberties. This neo-puritanical era has gone too far and I hope the pendulum swings the other way sometime soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin Peters</title>
		<link>http://brownandlittlelaw.com/blog1/2009/11/18/more-on-smoking-bans/comment-page-1/#comment-6517</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Peters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:16:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brownandlittlelaw.com/blog1/?p=296#comment-6517</guid>
		<description>Jay, and thank you for carrying an ashtray with you and giving them out!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay, and thank you for carrying an ashtray with you and giving them out!</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin Peters</title>
		<link>http://brownandlittlelaw.com/blog1/2009/11/18/more-on-smoking-bans/comment-page-1/#comment-6516</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Peters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:15:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brownandlittlelaw.com/blog1/?p=296#comment-6516</guid>
		<description>@Jay,

I agree that there&#039;s too much fearmongering about the dangers of cigarettes; either from occassional exposure to secondhand smoke, or the suggestion that cigarette litter is toxic.  We should be so lucky that cigarette butts were our most toxic litter!

Unfortunately, I&#039;m sorry to say though that I&#039;m also sympathetic to a prohibition on chewing gum in our streets, and so while I find your argument persuasive, it&#039;s not in I think the way you&#039;d like.  In many large cities you&#039;re hard pressed to find a sidewalk block that is not defaced by at least one essentially unremovable chewing-gum stain.

Perhaps I&#039;m overly upset by litter; but I do think that if a prohibition in public of an activity doesn&#039;t really make the activity untenable (say, like a prohibition on public flyering, picketing etc... would be), and that the activity has demonstrated significant negative externalities not otherwise mitigatable without any public benefit, why let it be done on our sidewalks and roads?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jay,</p>
<p>I agree that there&#8217;s too much fearmongering about the dangers of cigarettes; either from occassional exposure to secondhand smoke, or the suggestion that cigarette litter is toxic.  We should be so lucky that cigarette butts were our most toxic litter!</p>
<p>Unfortunately, I&#8217;m sorry to say though that I&#8217;m also sympathetic to a prohibition on chewing gum in our streets, and so while I find your argument persuasive, it&#8217;s not in I think the way you&#8217;d like.  In many large cities you&#8217;re hard pressed to find a sidewalk block that is not defaced by at least one essentially unremovable chewing-gum stain.</p>
<p>Perhaps I&#8217;m overly upset by litter; but I do think that if a prohibition in public of an activity doesn&#8217;t really make the activity untenable (say, like a prohibition on public flyering, picketing etc&#8230; would be), and that the activity has demonstrated significant negative externalities not otherwise mitigatable without any public benefit, why let it be done on our sidewalks and roads?</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://brownandlittlelaw.com/blog1/2009/11/18/more-on-smoking-bans/comment-page-1/#comment-6515</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:12:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brownandlittlelaw.com/blog1/?p=296#comment-6515</guid>
		<description>dang, I left off a word. It should have read &quot;Cigarette butts [...] will NOT leave permanent marks ...&quot;. Apologies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dang, I left off a word. It should have read &#8220;Cigarette butts [...] will NOT leave permanent marks &#8230;&#8221;. Apologies.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://brownandlittlelaw.com/blog1/2009/11/18/more-on-smoking-bans/comment-page-1/#comment-6514</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:09:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brownandlittlelaw.com/blog1/?p=296#comment-6514</guid>
		<description>Gavin: Cigarette litter is not particularly egregious; it does not attract vermin, it *will* either mostly or completely degrade over enough time, or more likely it will be picked up. There has much been talk about &quot;harmful, toxic chemicals&quot; in cigarette butts that somehow damage the environment, but it&#039;s not based on scientific evidence nor fact. It&#039;s allegory, devised and spun for maximum effect by anti-smoking groups who endlessly misinform to further their anti-tobacco agenda. 

That said, what is more troubling is the far greater evil of discarded chewing gum on sidewalks, or those who thoughtlessly spit saliva onto public walkways and pavements. Chewing gum removal without expensive equipment is next to impossible, and can lead to permanent damage to concrete and stone. Cigarette butts, however, can be swept up handily and will leave permanent marks on most stone surfaces.  But I wouldn&#039;t advocate banning chewing gum because the world is filled with a bunch of idiots.

I smoke, and I carry around a small, personal tin ashtray (approx 1.75&quot; in diameter). I give these to all my friends who smoke, and they love them and use them all the time. That&#039;s a far better solution than considering banning smoking, else we may as well just ban chewing gum and everything else people can toss to the ground.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gavin: Cigarette litter is not particularly egregious; it does not attract vermin, it *will* either mostly or completely degrade over enough time, or more likely it will be picked up. There has much been talk about &#8220;harmful, toxic chemicals&#8221; in cigarette butts that somehow damage the environment, but it&#8217;s not based on scientific evidence nor fact. It&#8217;s allegory, devised and spun for maximum effect by anti-smoking groups who endlessly misinform to further their anti-tobacco agenda. </p>
<p>That said, what is more troubling is the far greater evil of discarded chewing gum on sidewalks, or those who thoughtlessly spit saliva onto public walkways and pavements. Chewing gum removal without expensive equipment is next to impossible, and can lead to permanent damage to concrete and stone. Cigarette butts, however, can be swept up handily and will leave permanent marks on most stone surfaces.  But I wouldn&#8217;t advocate banning chewing gum because the world is filled with a bunch of idiots.</p>
<p>I smoke, and I carry around a small, personal tin ashtray (approx 1.75&#8243; in diameter). I give these to all my friends who smoke, and they love them and use them all the time. That&#8217;s a far better solution than considering banning smoking, else we may as well just ban chewing gum and everything else people can toss to the ground.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Laprade</title>
		<link>http://brownandlittlelaw.com/blog1/2009/11/18/more-on-smoking-bans/comment-page-1/#comment-6504</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Laprade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 03:15:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brownandlittlelaw.com/blog1/?p=296#comment-6504</guid>
		<description>Government power the real health hazard

The bandwagon of local smoking bans now steamrolling across the nation has nothing to do with protecting people from the supposed threat of &quot;second-hand&quot; smoke. 

Indeed, the bans are symptoms of a far more grievous threat, a cancer that has been spreading for decades and has now metastasized throughout the body politic, spreading even to the tiniest organs of local government. This cancer is the only real hazard involved – the cancer of unlimited government power. 

The issue is not whether second-hand smoke is a real danger or is in fact just a phantom menace, as a study published recently in the British Medical Journal indicates. The issue is: If it were harmful, what would be the proper reaction? Should anti-tobacco activists satisfy themselves with educating people about the potential danger and allowing them to make their own decisions, or should they seize the power of government and force people to make the &quot;right&quot; decision? 

Supporters of local tobacco bans have made their choice. Rather than trying to protect people from an unwanted intrusion on their health, the bans are the unwanted intrusion. 

Loudly billed as measures that only affect &quot;public places,&quot; they have actually targeted private places: restaurants, bars, nightclubs, shops and offices – places whose owners are free to set anti-smoking rules or whose customers are free to go elsewhere if they don&#039;t like the smoke. Some local bans even harass smokers in places where their effect on others is negligible, such as outdoor public parks. 

The decision to smoke, or to avoid &quot;second-hand&quot; smoke, is a question to be answered by each individual based on his own values and his own assessment of the risks. This is the same kind of decision free people make regarding every aspect of their lives: how much to spend or invest, whom to befriend or sleep with, whether to go to college or get a job, whether to get married or divorced, and so on. 

All of these decisions involve risks; some have demonstrably harmful consequences; most are controversial and invite disapproval from the neighbours. But the individual must be free to make these decisions. He must be free because his life belongs to him, not to his neighbours, and only his own judgment can guide him through it. 

Yet when it comes to smoking, this freedom is under attack. Smokers are a numerical minority, practising a habit considered annoying and unpleasant to the majority. So the majority has simply commandeered the power of government and used it to dictate their behaviour. 

That is why these bans are far more threatening than the prospect of inhaling a few stray whiffs of tobacco while waiting for a table at your favourite restaurant. The anti-tobacco crusaders point in exaggerated alarm at those wisps of smoke while they unleash the unlimited intrusion of government into our lives. We do not elect officials to control and manipulate our behaviour. 



Thomas Laprade</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Government power the real health hazard</p>
<p>The bandwagon of local smoking bans now steamrolling across the nation has nothing to do with protecting people from the supposed threat of &#8220;second-hand&#8221; smoke. </p>
<p>Indeed, the bans are symptoms of a far more grievous threat, a cancer that has been spreading for decades and has now metastasized throughout the body politic, spreading even to the tiniest organs of local government. This cancer is the only real hazard involved – the cancer of unlimited government power. </p>
<p>The issue is not whether second-hand smoke is a real danger or is in fact just a phantom menace, as a study published recently in the British Medical Journal indicates. The issue is: If it were harmful, what would be the proper reaction? Should anti-tobacco activists satisfy themselves with educating people about the potential danger and allowing them to make their own decisions, or should they seize the power of government and force people to make the &#8220;right&#8221; decision? </p>
<p>Supporters of local tobacco bans have made their choice. Rather than trying to protect people from an unwanted intrusion on their health, the bans are the unwanted intrusion. </p>
<p>Loudly billed as measures that only affect &#8220;public places,&#8221; they have actually targeted private places: restaurants, bars, nightclubs, shops and offices – places whose owners are free to set anti-smoking rules or whose customers are free to go elsewhere if they don&#8217;t like the smoke. Some local bans even harass smokers in places where their effect on others is negligible, such as outdoor public parks. </p>
<p>The decision to smoke, or to avoid &#8220;second-hand&#8221; smoke, is a question to be answered by each individual based on his own values and his own assessment of the risks. This is the same kind of decision free people make regarding every aspect of their lives: how much to spend or invest, whom to befriend or sleep with, whether to go to college or get a job, whether to get married or divorced, and so on. </p>
<p>All of these decisions involve risks; some have demonstrably harmful consequences; most are controversial and invite disapproval from the neighbours. But the individual must be free to make these decisions. He must be free because his life belongs to him, not to his neighbours, and only his own judgment can guide him through it. </p>
<p>Yet when it comes to smoking, this freedom is under attack. Smokers are a numerical minority, practising a habit considered annoying and unpleasant to the majority. So the majority has simply commandeered the power of government and used it to dictate their behaviour. </p>
<p>That is why these bans are far more threatening than the prospect of inhaling a few stray whiffs of tobacco while waiting for a table at your favourite restaurant. The anti-tobacco crusaders point in exaggerated alarm at those wisps of smoke while they unleash the unlimited intrusion of government into our lives. We do not elect officials to control and manipulate our behaviour. </p>
<p>Thomas Laprade</p>
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		<title>By: Gavin Peters</title>
		<link>http://brownandlittlelaw.com/blog1/2009/11/18/more-on-smoking-bans/comment-page-1/#comment-6500</link>
		<dc:creator>Gavin Peters</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brownandlittlelaw.com/blog1/?p=296#comment-6500</guid>
		<description>When I contemplate negative externalities of cigarettes, I focus mainly on the litter.  It&#039;s less effemoral, and its harm is definite.

I am not a lawyer, so I cannot speak to the legal basis, but I am comfortable with bans on smoking on sidewalks and in motorcars on public ways simply because of this litter and nothing more.  I obviously feel differently about restaurants and people&#039;s homes on this basis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I contemplate negative externalities of cigarettes, I focus mainly on the litter.  It&#8217;s less effemoral, and its harm is definite.</p>
<p>I am not a lawyer, so I cannot speak to the legal basis, but I am comfortable with bans on smoking on sidewalks and in motorcars on public ways simply because of this litter and nothing more.  I obviously feel differently about restaurants and people&#8217;s homes on this basis.</p>
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		<title>By: E. Honda</title>
		<link>http://brownandlittlelaw.com/blog1/2009/11/18/more-on-smoking-bans/comment-page-1/#comment-6499</link>
		<dc:creator>E. Honda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:11:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brownandlittlelaw.com/blog1/?p=296#comment-6499</guid>
		<description>Do I sense a little cigar-induced paranoia here?  If our rulers&#039; long-range &quot;plan&quot; is to conform to social norms, I don&#039;t know if that&#039;s particularly dangerous to our &quot;freedoms.&quot;  That&#039;s more a product of government being full of elected representatives that ostentsibly do what their constituencies want in order to keep their jobs.

It&#039;s more nefarious if the plan is to INFLUENCE social norms, and that may be happening in certain arenas, but I believe the backlash against smoking is a true widespread personal opposition that government is trying to adopt rather than promote.

Let&#039;s not forget that legislative adoption of social norms can lead to deregulation as well... for example, while tobacco is being attacked, we&#039;re having the first serious national conversation about lifting the ban on marijuana.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do I sense a little cigar-induced paranoia here?  If our rulers&#8217; long-range &#8220;plan&#8221; is to conform to social norms, I don&#8217;t know if that&#8217;s particularly dangerous to our &#8220;freedoms.&#8221;  That&#8217;s more a product of government being full of elected representatives that ostentsibly do what their constituencies want in order to keep their jobs.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s more nefarious if the plan is to INFLUENCE social norms, and that may be happening in certain arenas, but I believe the backlash against smoking is a true widespread personal opposition that government is trying to adopt rather than promote.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s not forget that legislative adoption of social norms can lead to deregulation as well&#8230; for example, while tobacco is being attacked, we&#8217;re having the first serious national conversation about lifting the ban on marijuana.</p>
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		<title>By: Clooch</title>
		<link>http://brownandlittlelaw.com/blog1/2009/11/18/more-on-smoking-bans/comment-page-1/#comment-6498</link>
		<dc:creator>Clooch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:07:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://brownandlittlelaw.com/blog1/?p=296#comment-6498</guid>
		<description>http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local-beat/Woman-Sues-Over-Neighbors-Smoking--62989052.html

Its not just the gov&#039;t.  This country is full of people all too willing to litigate and/or legislate away freedoms if they don&#039;t like them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local-beat/Woman-Sues-Over-Neighbors-Smoking--62989052.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local-beat/Woman-Sues-Over-Neighbors-Smoking&#8211;62989052.html</a></p>
<p>Its not just the gov&#8217;t.  This country is full of people all too willing to litigate and/or legislate away freedoms if they don&#8217;t like them.</p>
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